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Author Topic: Color/Value/Chroma  (Read 2111 times)

patindaytona

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on: December 31, 2010, 05:17:00 PM
Thanks Dennis, I will post it when I finish it, but I have yet to even go out and get a canvas for it!
I have been obsessed day and night. I stayed up the entire night studying the chroma, how to use the next color DOWN to DARKEN (which is tricky because that is the sole purpose....not to necessarily change the hue or anything other than that) . Lighten with white and then add a touch of the next color UP to maintain the chroma. i've got it all down pat now!
I also have read on different methods of lowering the chroma of color. Of course, use the opposite, but that seems like too much thinking compared to one method I have read about. Some people claim that black is a no good color, but others say it is really not so bad.    The one method I have read that really interests me is to    make out about say....4 or so piles of neutral greys, each having a different value.     All I would need to do when darkening a color, and then having the need to dull it down...would be to just use the neutral grey that matches it's value (or err on the lighter grey, since a darker one would not only neutralize it, but also would darken it further, which i dont' want).         I have been figuring this out in my head all on my own!...that if you added a ton of that neutral grey to a color with the same value..........all that would happen is that color would become the very same neutral GREY!   No darker at all, no matter how much is added.        If you added a PINCH of pure black, that already is darkening that color. So interesting!              But then their's the other half...to actually be able to juggle with all of this AND paint things with the brush...trees, skies, water..that's all something else to contend with. But at least the knowlege adds confidence in doing it.   This is pretty much all of it in a nutshell. I hope some of the others on here can use this info.
The moment you find yourself mostly satisfied with a painting and think you'll "just quickly" do this or that, that's the moment to stop completely. Take the painting off your easel and put it aside for at least 24 hours, then reassess whether it really needs that tweak.


dennis

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Reply #1 on: December 31, 2010, 07:43:00 PM
Pat, may I respectfully say that you are suffering the same disease we are all suffering from - information overload  :eek: and confusing yourself by looking at all the different ways of understanding and mixing color. I know how you feel because I have been through the same mill myself as well in the past.

By trying to delve too deep and too quickly into the intricacies of color you are slowly taking away the joy of painting from yourself. Be very careful not to lose the fun of just throwing colors together and seeing what will come out of it - without ever thinking about the technical side of it.

 Every artist has his/her favorite method of mixing colors, have their own particular set of favorite colors that they use. And also because we are all fascinating individuals, each with a different way of "seeing" color, both physically and mentally, there will ALWAYS be artists who say that THEIR method is superior to the others.

I say this to all other beginner artists - DON'T get bogged down with the terms chroma, hue and all the others until you are well on the way of normal mixing. Here on the forum we have artists who have been on the road a very long time to absolute beginners and we have to cater for all "grades" as it were in the same classroom. I painted successfully for many years before I even heard of the terms of chroma, etc.

If you want to mix colors successfully then try to stick to ONE method and master it BEFORE trying out others. This way you will have a solid foundation to build on. I am not claiming that our method is the very best, but it is one of the best. Take what we will be giving you here at the Paint Basket and slowly build on it.

Our method has been very successful for at least 2 decades and is a proven concept. Start with what Nolan and I have been giving you. Do the color mixing exercises I have started to give and you and you will not go wrong.

In the meantime just relax and enjoy the art side of ART.

And what I normally say: "HAPPY painting!"

You are what you THINK about - Napoleon Hill


nolan

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Reply #2 on: December 31, 2010, 09:58:25 PM
we do use black in certain circumstances, but the main reason we don't promote it that the black pigments that you buy are very strong and tend to overpower whatever color you are adding them to, so you need a lot of practice to be able to use black correctly without killing your colours. By adding the opposite colour you can go as little as one shade darker, an almost impossible task with black.

You can use shades of black like you mentioned and that should work, but you would then need to use something like the Color Buster to be sure you are adding the correct tonal value to your mix. I have found that the hardest thing to see is the tonal value of a color because we all battle to look past the hue (color) component. One of the main reasons why I designed the Color Buster in the first place.

It's good see you are trying different things to learn about color because it makes up 50% of the painting process, but as Dennis says, be careful of the paralysis by analysis syndrome, master one method first. It makes it easier to play around with other methods afterwards as you then almost instinctively know what the result will be. O0

You are doing well Paton :clap:


patindaytona

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Reply #3 on: December 31, 2010, 10:38:18 PM
Thanks Dennis and Nolan for your advices. I have another question. I know you're looking forward to that  :whistle:
I always take out a tube of paint "as needed". I don't put down alot of piles all prepared the the pro's do.  I bet alot of beginners do the same thing. The paint either/or will waste and dry, or just not be used up, so I don't do it.
It does make things more frustrating though and have to say to myself, "well, since this color is already OUT, i'll add a little more of it to the painting. Or, similarly, since I have "these colors available on my palette, I'll continue to dabble with them, until I think i really need some other color "to get out". I know you've come across this alot in your years. Any advice on this?   With the greying down of the chroma, I was thinking of maybe finding some very small plastic containers, like they have in restaurants for dipping sauce with little lids on them and pre-mixing the greys into them, so I can keep the paint wet each time I use it.    I bought a big plastic palette container with lid, and it really doesn't keep my paints wet for more than a day or so unless it's a large pile of paint.........like it's supposed to do.
The moment you find yourself mostly satisfied with a painting and think you'll "just quickly" do this or that, that's the moment to stop completely. Take the painting off your easel and put it aside for at least 24 hours, then reassess whether it really needs that tweak.


Kelley

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Reply #4 on: January 01, 2011, 05:16:14 AM
Pat, I know you are waiting for a response from Dennis and Nolan, but I figure I'd let you know what I do.  I take only as much paint as I need at a time.  I don't have the option of placing my mixed paint in small containers right now and use plastic (picnic type) plates as my mixing palette and throw it away when done or keep the plate as a reference if I am not done painting with my oils.  If I were using acrylics I probably would use small containers with lids to keep my mixed paints fresh for later.  I'm not sure if I could get away with doing that with my oils.
Kelley


patindaytona

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Reply #5 on: January 01, 2011, 02:29:06 PM
Sounds good Kelly. I've been painting some more each day for maybe only about 20 min. Let me put it this way, I've been pretty lucky the past few paintings and I would have to say for as a beginner, they've turned out very nice. But, I fiddle for ever on the smallest little things, just trying this and that, wiping off until I say, yea, that's pretty good, with each and every brush stroke. I KNOW if it is right, and when it is i leave it on. This isn't the way to paint and it bothers me, but then like i said...the paintings have "worked"pretty good doing it all this way. Still...i feel like i'm not being a "true artist" doing it like this.
The moment you find yourself mostly satisfied with a painting and think you'll "just quickly" do this or that, that's the moment to stop completely. Take the painting off your easel and put it aside for at least 24 hours, then reassess whether it really needs that tweak.


dennis

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Reply #6 on: January 01, 2011, 06:10:19 PM
My recommendation is to put out the colors you need along the edge of the palette. The center is used for mixing purposed. Don't put piles of paint in the mixing area as this will cause problem at some stage or other by inadvertently picking up some of it on the underside of your painting knife and transferring it the other mix by mistake.

If perhaps you do have some paint left over at the end of the session then cover the palette lightly with some  klingwrap or similar and put it in the  refrigerator until you want to use it in the next day or two.

I personally would not recommend the used of little containers for each oil or acrylic color. One of my students tried it and it turned out a disaster as it is very awkward to get out and also it tended to dry out and in general very inconvenient to use. Try it by all means - it is personal preference in the end.

Also only put out the colors you need - any other way is a waste of paint and only clutters up the palette.

Be careful of trying to keep mixed paint too long if you have added some medium to it because of the oxidizing action of the medium.
You are what you THINK about - Napoleon Hill


patindaytona

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Reply #7 on: January 01, 2011, 07:57:30 PM
Thanks Nolan,
As you know and i know...lots of times when you have a really great idea in your head and it seems so logical and simple........it ends up not working at all!    Yes, the Liquin I use to mix paints with, that's why my paints on the paletter are so dry so fast even in my so called paint preserving container. A great tip you mention is being sure not to put the paint piles in the center of the palette. My palette is so confusing and paint is everywhere very quickly on it. I'll try to organize better. But still...when you mix, the palette still is covered up so fast!     I had been using some wax paper since i began painting 6 months back inside my large flat container, but i recently ordered a acrylic sheet to fit in it instead. It will still be totally contaminated fast, so I'm thinking i can just wipe of excess with a towel, and scrape dry off with the knife.
The moment you find yourself mostly satisfied with a painting and think you'll "just quickly" do this or that, that's the moment to stop completely. Take the painting off your easel and put it aside for at least 24 hours, then reassess whether it really needs that tweak.


dennis

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Reply #8 on: January 01, 2011, 08:13:35 PM
For outdoor painting I have a flat plastic container with a flip lid also with a sheet of ABS plastic stuck down in it with Prestick or similar (kneadable). This can then be closed and carried under the arm if necessary.  You can take this container with the paints in it and simply place it in the refrigerator until needed.

I clean the mixing area as often as needed.
You are what you THINK about - Napoleon Hill


patindaytona

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Reply #9 on: January 01, 2011, 09:29:26 PM
After much much studying lately, I want to do things the right way and organize as much as I can, but it doesn't always end up that way especially when working with this kind of medium. It's like playing in the mud!   But still...what I usually do when I have ideas is too type them all down and plan, plan plan. At least i can attempt them and get some kind of organization. Eventually, that would start to become second nature I hope.  I'm starting to get what the difference is between Chroma and Value.         This is my idea of what they are:   Picture a square light box illuminated inside.    A sheet of green cellophane on top of it (you're paint).   Now, the light starts to become dimmer and dimmer.   The value of the green is becoming lower.     BUT..........the green cellophane is STILL the very same green. It appears "duller", but that's just the value changing.      Nothing has happened at all the that green sheet of cellophane.         To dull it, use the opposite color, or other method. Now it's physical characteristic has changed. BUT....the light box was not effected and it's light was not dimmed at all. The value has remained the same. Only the Green cellophane's characteristic was changed (chroma).   This is my anology of it all.
The moment you find yourself mostly satisfied with a painting and think you'll "just quickly" do this or that, that's the moment to stop completely. Take the painting off your easel and put it aside for at least 24 hours, then reassess whether it really needs that tweak.


nolan

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Reply #10 on: January 01, 2011, 09:56:34 PM
sound about right Pat O0